HomeCompleted Trips

Talk about a trip you took out to Anza Borrego

Jacumba and Table Mountain Exploration Messages in this topic - RSS

sddarkman619
sddarkman619
Posts: 143


4/16/2016
sddarkman619
sddarkman619
Posts: 143
Last Sunday I went out to Jacumba to investigate some places I've been looking at for a few years. The first is a place I always find pottery, lithic flakes and Morteros. The second was out by Table Mtn.

The first place, off old 80, is a place that literally you park the vehicle, open the door and be careful when your step because the pottery is everywhere. It's a place where many people have camped before and I wish they'd close it to camping so these areas stay protected.
I found so many morteros I stopped counting. Pottery everywhere, and a water source which looked like someone or some thing recently dug it out to drink from.

The second area was behind Table Mtn to look for some documented sites of dwellings and rock art. While I didn't find any rock art I did find more pottery and some morteros. I spent 12 hours out there that day but most of it was previous to the places with the rock art, so my next trip will focus on the rock art areas only.
I hope to get back out there soon. I'm trying to log all the old trails by the railroad as well and some of the benchmarks.
I didn't load all the images of Morteros, as it would be so many as to bore you but there were over 25 that I count. Here are a few.







Watch where you step this stuff is everywhere.




Some nice water falls




Someone, or some thing dug this out to get some water.


The falls from the top with Morteros


One of several guzzlers I ran across.


I-8 in the background left. Followed one of the old Train Construction Trails way back but had to turn around as I was alone and didn't want to risk getting stuck without help. While I had my Delorme InReach I'd rather have a trail buddy with me. Could have driven to the tracks I believe.


Parked the truck at one hill of boulders and went to step out but almost fell over trying to avoid stepping on this



A plugged Yoni? Dude got lucky huh?


Another Yoni.


a very cool cactus garden


a miners water hole


another set of falls that led to ...


This...


possible grave? small one at that, maybe a child?


an old dam.
link
ziphius
ziphius
Posts: 663


4/17/2016
ziphius
ziphius
Posts: 663
Looks like a great trip. That stone in the lower right (4th photo) looks amazing, almost like it was intended to be a large point eventually.

Yonis.... I attended a lecture by Dr. Joan Schneider on Anza Borrego archaeology in March and I asked her about Yonis after her talk. She says they are natural geologic formations. Not to burst the bubble of Yoni believers, but she apparently knows her stuff.
link
rockhopper
rockhopper
Posts: 364


4/17/2016
rockhopper
rockhopper
Posts: 364
Jacumba / I-8 route is a very old coast to desert trail used my many over the centuries. Only fresh water source during seasonal changes. Great TR and nice Truck photo!
link
sddarkman619
sddarkman619
Posts: 143


4/17/2016
sddarkman619
sddarkman619
Posts: 143
ziphius wrote:
Looks like a great trip. That stone in the lower right (4th photo) looks amazing, almost like it was intended to be a large point eventually.

Yonis.... I attended a lecture by Dr. Joan Schneider on Anza Borrego archaeology in March and I asked her about Yonis after her talk. She says they are natural geologic formations. Not to burst the bubble of Yoni believers, but she apparently knows her stuff.


Realyl? on the yoni? No real thing huh? hahahaha
link
sddarkman619
sddarkman619
Posts: 143


4/17/2016
sddarkman619
sddarkman619
Posts: 143
rockhopper wrote:
Jacumba / I-8 route is a very old coast to desert trail used my many over the centuries. Only fresh water source during seasonal changes. Great TR and nice Truck photo!


I've found some lighter pottery in the area not native to Jacumba, most likely on trade route. Love the truck!

Here's some of that lighter pottery:





edited by sddarkman619 on 4/17/2016
link
sddarkman619
sddarkman619
Posts: 143


4/17/2016
sddarkman619
sddarkman619
Posts: 143
ziphius wrote:
Looks like a great trip. That stone in the lower right (4th photo) looks amazing, almost like it was intended to be a large point eventually.


There were so many chippings in all the places I went, I just couldn't post all the photos of the Morteros and chippings and pottery, it would get boring about about 30 images. But there's just so much everywhere.
link
anutami
anutami
Posts: 479


4/17/2016
anutami
anutami
Posts: 479
ziphius wrote:
Looks like a great trip. That stone in the lower right (4th photo) looks amazing, almost like it was intended to be a large point eventually.

Yonis.... I attended a lecture by Dr. Joan Schneider on Anza Borrego archaeology in March and I asked her about Yonis after her talk. She says they are natural geologic formations. Not to burst the bubble of Yoni believers, but she apparently knows her stuff.


Really? I find that hard to believe. Any more information on how they are formed? They seem to always be around village sites and from my experience I would say it is obvious they are man made.



edited by anutami on 4/17/2016
link
dsefcik
dsefcik
Administrator
Posts: 2075


4/17/2016
dsefcik
dsefcik
Administrator
Posts: 2075
anutami wrote:
Really? I find that hard to believe. Any more information on how they are formed? They seem to always be around village sites and from my experience I would say it is obvious they are man made.
General consensus from folks who study them say they are geological formations but then there are folks who listen to Coast to Coast every night and always stop to visit Coyote Jeff next to the Desert Tower...






--
http://www.sefcik.com
http://www.darensefcik.com
http://www.carrizogorge.com
link
sddarkman619
sddarkman619
Posts: 143


4/17/2016
sddarkman619
sddarkman619
Posts: 143
anutami wrote:
ziphius wrote:
Looks like a great trip. That stone in the lower right (4th photo) looks amazing, almost like it was intended to be a large point eventually.

Yonis.... I attended a lecture by Dr. Joan Schneider on Anza Borrego archaeology in March and I asked her about Yonis after her talk. She says they are natural geologic formations. Not to burst the bubble of Yoni believers, but she apparently knows her stuff.


Really? I find that hard to believe. Any more information on how they are formed? They seem to always be around village sites and from my experience I would say it is obvious they are man made.



edited by anutami on 4/17/2016



Well, regardless of if they are manmade or not they are still pretty cool looking and give the mind something to think about. smile
link
sddarkman619
sddarkman619
Posts: 143


4/17/2016
sddarkman619
sddarkman619
Posts: 143
anutami wrote:
ziphius wrote:
Looks like a great trip. That stone in the lower right (4th photo) looks amazing, almost like it was intended to be a large point eventually.

Yonis.... I attended a lecture by Dr. Joan Schneider on Anza Borrego archaeology in March and I asked her about Yonis after her talk. She says they are natural geologic formations. Not to burst the bubble of Yoni believers, but she apparently knows her stuff.


Really? I find that hard to believe. Any more information on how they are formed? They seem to always be around village sites and from my experience I would say it is obvious they are man made.



edited by anutami on 4/17/2016


this first image is this one by Solstice cave? I've seen it but don't remember where.
link
Canebrake Jeff
Canebrake Jeff
Posts: 11


4/22/2016
Canebrake Jeff
Canebrake Jeff
Posts: 11
Just because one archaeologist says Yonis are natural doesn't make it so. Lots of studies say otherwise. The local tribes themselves say they did it. Goggle Native American fertility yonis. Or you can buy a book (study paper) at the ABNHA store in Borrego Springs.
+1 link
ziphius
ziphius
Posts: 663


4/24/2016
ziphius
ziphius
Posts: 663
Canebrake Jeff wrote:
Just because one archaeologist says Yonis are natural doesn't make it so. Lots of studies say otherwise. The local tribes themselves say they did it. Goggle Native American fertility yonis. Or you can buy a book (study paper) at the ABNHA store in Borrego Springs.


Jeff, is there a specific book you had in mind at the ABNHA store? I'd be interested in reading more. - Jim
link
Canebrake Jeff
Canebrake Jeff
Posts: 11


4/25/2016
Canebrake Jeff
Canebrake Jeff
Posts: 11
It's a study from the university in San Diego. I first heard about them in 1975 from my Geology professor. It seems someone switched a slide and put in it's place a photo of "Queen Rock" in JT. The class roared with laughter. He then told us about the native fertility rituals and called them Yonis. I found Queen rock in the early '90's in a side canyon near The Wonderland of Rocks. They were carved from natural cracks near village sites in easily accessible areas mostly in the general area of southern ABDSP. There is a good one just off the east bound 8 on the south side between Jacumba and the tower. There are a lot around Piedras Grande including the most famous one by the eastern shelter cave. This is near the road closure. If I knew how to post pictures I could show you 10 to 20 of them. Ziphius, I will get the information on the book when I return from Canebrake next weekend.
link
BorregoWrangler
BorregoWrangler
Posts: 168


4/25/2016
BorregoWrangler
BorregoWrangler
Posts: 168
Nice trip report and photos. I love exploring that area. I still need to get out there again and explore Grey Mountain.

--
-John
link
sddarkman619
sddarkman619
Posts: 143


4/25/2016
sddarkman619
sddarkman619
Posts: 143
BorregoWrangler wrote:
Nice trip report and photos. I love exploring that area. I still need to get out there again and explore Grey Mountain.


John, probably going out there again either this weekend or the next weekend.
link
tommy750
tommy750
Posts: 734


4/26/2016
tommy750
tommy750
Posts: 734
Here's what little I know of this subject. The linear and oval indentations on granitic rocks in ABDSP reminiscent of the human vulva are often referred to as "yoni," a term first applied to these non-pictograph structures by Charlotte McGowan in her 1982 "Ceremonial Fertility Sites in Southern California." Others have subsequently made similar observations. The basic idea is natural rock features were worked or enhanced by the Kumeyaay and utilized during fertility rites. The ONLY ethnographic account of these structures linked to anything Kumeyaay or any type of fertility rite was relayed to Ken Hedges by an old rancher at the Crawford Ranch who stated a shaman approached him in 1935 asking to bury his dead relative on the ranch and mentioning in passing that women who could not conceive would visit "magic stones" in order to conceive. That's it! In 2012, Heather Thomson began giving lectures discussing her Masters Thesis which attempted to answer the question whether the granitic vulva-like structures were soley the result of natural weathering or was there evidence the structures had been worked or enhanced. I attended one of her lectures in 2013 at the San Diego Archaeological Center and basically she identified numerous typical examples of yonis (many with trinomials) and had five geologists examine them for any signs of enhancement and whether all the observed characteristics were a result of natural weathering. The unanimous opinion from the geologists was no enhancement and all characteristics a result of granitic natural weathering. I haven't read Heather Thomson's thesis but it sounds like an interesting read.
edited by tommy750 on 4/26/2016
link
ziphius
ziphius
Posts: 663


4/26/2016
ziphius
ziphius
Posts: 663
Geologists are such killjoys. Seriously, thanks for the info Tom! smile

tommy750 wrote:
Here's what little I know of this subject. The linear and oval indentations on granitic rocks in ABDSP reminiscent of the human vulva are often referred to as "yoni," a term first applied to these non-pictograph structures by Charlotte McGowan in her 1982 "Ceremonial Fertility Sites in Southern California." Others have subsequently made similar observations. The basic idea is natural rock features were worked or enhanced by the Kumeyaay and utilized during fertility rites. The ONLY ethnographic account of these structures linked to anything Kumeyaay or any type of fertility rite was relayed to Ken Hedges by an old rancher at the Crawford Ranch who stated a shaman approached him in 1935 asking to bury his dead relative on the ranch and mentioning in passing that women who could not conceive would visit "magic stones" in order to conceive. That's it! In 2012, Heather Thomson began giving lectures discussing her Masters Thesis which attempted to answer the question whether the granitic vulva-like structures were soley the result of natural weathering or was there evidence the structures had been worked or enhanced. I attended one of her lectures in 2013 at the San Diego Archaeological Center and basically she identified numerous typical examples of yonis (many with trinomials) and had five geologists examine them for any signs of enhancement and whether all the observed characteristics were a result of natural weathering. The unanimous opinion from the geologists was no enhancement and all characteristics a result of granitic natural weathering. I haven't read Heather Thomson's thesis but it sounds like an interesting read.
edited by tommy750 on 4/26/2016
link
Canebrake Jeff
Canebrake Jeff
Posts: 11


4/29/2016
Canebrake Jeff
Canebrake Jeff
Posts: 11
I,m sure the geologists said " There does not appear to be any recent signs of enhancement and the surface appears to be naturally weathered". A follow up question should be " In what time frame would signs of enhancement be erased by natural weathering" There unanimous answer would be " Ummm, I guess maybe 300 to 500 years depending on many unknown factors". Tommy750 is correct with his info on Charlotte's study, But he must not have read her conclusion. She writes "Four Yonis appear to have been altered by pecking, grinding or carving,or carving. (7 others) appear to have been enhanced to make them more closely resemble their human counterpart, the vulva." She also wrote in her conclusion "In many cases, the yonis are directly incorporated into village sites." Once you have seen as many as I have, you develop a feel for what is altered and what is natural.
link
ziphius
ziphius
Posts: 663


4/30/2016
ziphius
ziphius
Posts: 663
dsefcik wrote:
General consensus from folks who study them say they are geological formations but then there are folks who listen to Coast to Coast every night and always stop to visit Coyote Jeff next to the Desert Tower...


Probably one of the best (entertainment) shows on radio. Drinking scotch under the stars listening to archived Art Bell episodes from my backyard.... a good use of a Saturday night.
+1 link
tommy750
tommy750
Posts: 734


4/30/2016
tommy750
tommy750
Posts: 734
Canebrake Jeff wrote:
I,m sure the geologists said " There does not appear to be any recent signs of enhancement and the surface appears to be naturally weathered". A follow up question should be " In what time frame would signs of enhancement be erased by natural weathering" There unanimous answer would be " Ummm, I guess maybe 300 to 500 years depending on many unknown factors". Tommy750 is correct with his info on Charlotte's study, But he must not have read her conclusion. She writes "Four Yonis appear to have been altered by pecking, grinding or carving,or carving. (7 others) appear to have been enhanced to make them more closely resemble their human counterpart, the vulva." She also wrote in her conclusion "In many cases, the yonis are directly incorporated into village sites." Once you have seen as many as I have, you develop a feel for what is altered and what is natural.


McGowan has made a fascinating hypothesis. Now, what's needed is evidence. Reversals of the burden of proof such as, "prove yonis at one time in the past weren't enhanced" are not convincing. There are many thousands of rubs, slickes, basins, morteros, cupules, metates and manos next to these same yonis still showing obvious wear so one might think at least some yonis would also show residual enhancement or modification. Find that one worked yoni and Thomson's counter hypothesis can be rejected.
link
dsefcik
dsefcik
Administrator
Posts: 2075


4/30/2016
dsefcik
dsefcik
Administrator
Posts: 2075
ziphius wrote:
listening to archived Art Bell episodes from my backyard.... a good use of a Saturday night.
I miss Art Bell, the new guy just isn't the same...kinda like Johnny Carson, nobody since has been the same....

--
http://www.sefcik.com
http://www.darensefcik.com
http://www.carrizogorge.com
link
ziphius
ziphius
Posts: 663


4/30/2016
ziphius
ziphius
Posts: 663
I'd be interested in searching for yonis in SEVERE terrain, where no village sites could have possibly been established, where the cost of human travel would have precluded the creation of yonis. If I started finding them in THAT kind of terrain, it would definitely tip my mind in favor of pure natural formations for sure. Or if the Mars rover 'Curiosity' starts finding them.....
link
outnabout
outnabout
Posts: 1


4/3/2017
outnabout
outnabout
Posts: 1
i will gladly provide a copy of my thesis to anyone who is interested. I have also been looking at sites up in Riverside....same thing up there...n
Mode 1 fractures, naturally occurring and not enhanced.
link
Britain
Britain
Posts: 189


4/6/2017
Britain
Britain
Posts: 189
I've hiked a lot the North Eastern side of table mountain. Tried to see If I could hook up with the upper mesa at Montero. I have seen no Yonies in this area. Did find where Devils Canyon Starts. Found some pottery frags.

--
Cant drive 55
Britain
http://icorva.com
link






Powered by Jitbit Forum 8.3.8.0 © 2006-2013 Jitbit Software